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Sarah Mizes-Tan, Host: Hey “Mid Pacific” listeners! We have another special bonus episode we are excited to share with you. It’s an episode of another podcast we love: “Proudly Asian.” It shares bold and proud stories of Asians by Asians. This episode is called “When They Dismiss Your Identity + Being In-Between.” Enjoy.
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[“Proudly Asian” episode “When They Dismiss Your Identity + Being In-Between”]
Isabel Wong, Host of “Proudly Asian”: Have you ever come across people who don't know anything about you but go ahead to make assumptions about you, or worse still, dismiss your identity and whole life experience?
Leanne Wang: My name is Leanne Wang. I guess I'm Chinese Canadian. I was born in China. I grew up in Toronto. I immigrated here with my parents when I was in grade three in the early 2000s. I think we were part of the last large wave of skilled immigrants here in Canada. Of course, it's always been very, very annoying when white people try to pin me down as Chinese to make themselves feel more settled. I think some people really need to categorize everyone they meet to have a sense of stability and safety or something like that.
Isabel Wong: That was Leanne Wang, a Chinese Canadian video director, who will tell us about how unconscious bias about race and identity still influences the media industry and the visibility of ethnic minorities in popular culture. And I'm your host, Isabel Wong.
In this episode of “Proudly Asian,” we take a deeper look into identity and why some people just fail to address their unconscious bias.
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Isabel Wong: As some of us continue on with life, we might eventually arrive at the conclusion that we do not need to please everybody. And if somebody chooses not to see us, there's no reason for us to acknowledge the person either. In a way, it's self-care. But it's also tricky with identity because unless we look like what we say we are. There will always be people who tell us we are what we are because of their bias. And that reflects the extent that they understand the world that we live in. Unconscious bias like that is still unfortunately a daily occurrence. Our guest from season one, Jacqueline Garwood, who is a British McKinney's Filipina born and raised in Hong Kong, tells us an incident that's all too familiar to a lot of Asian diasporas.
Jacqueline Garwood: I remember and I'll never forget as well, like just having an argument with a uni professor because we were in a class called I don't remember what the class was called, but it was something about Hong Kong culture and Hong Kong identity. And I was, of course, one of the only ones that were not Chinese, like Hong Kong Chinese. So she pointed me out, started asking me about, you know, how do I identify? Do you think I'm a – do you think you're a Hong Konger or whatever, all that stuff. I'm like, ‘Yeah, I do.’ I am a Hong Konger. I was born and raised here. I was brought up here. And she goes and asks me, okay, but do you have three stars on your, like, I.D. card? I have no idea what that means. I was like, No, I don't. And she goes, okay, so you're not a Hong Konger, then? And I was just so upset, like me and her, like we went back and forth and I'm like, ‘Who are you to tell me what I am and what I'm not?’
Isabella Wong: Identity and lived experience, denied. ‘You don't look like you're from here’ or ’You have this ethnicity. How can you be from that place?’ Those aren't just some common questions for those who don't look the part. And for Jazmine Sachiko Ross, a Caucasian British girl born and raised in Japan and barely knows anything about her British heritage. She's also on the receiving end of that simply because she does not look the part regardless of her upbringing.
Jazmine Sachiko Ross: My nationality and my blood are English. But I have never lived in England. It took me, what, 20 years before I actually knew where London was geographically. So like, do all this is say just like I have very little connection with England. And we didn't really visit very often, either. So my whole life has been surrounded or has been immersed in Japan. However, the whole time I've lived here and grown up here, I've been treated as the foreigner. Like I've never once been treated by Japanese people as a Japanese person. As much as I would like to say, I mean the Japanese English, I am in a situation where I can't really claim either.
Isabel Wong: No matter where we go, the world and people are so quick to try to tell us what they think we are and what we are not. But many of us are stuck between two or more identities, and we simply don't have one identity to settle in. And in fact, why should we?
Leanne Wang: I think I found navigating my identity quite challenging throughout my childhood and only really made peace with it over the last few years. I basically landed on apathy. I realized that I was not into patriotism for any country and that while I'm quite okay with being from China and being Canadian, I didn't really need people to see me as part of any culture. I think my cultural composition is pretty much 50/50. Most people lean one way or the other, but like most identity tags, I think it's really more of a spectrum than a multiple choice test.
Isabel Wong: Identity is a spectrum, not a multiple choice test, as Leanne peacefully puts it.
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Isabel Wong: It makes you wonder why are some people so comfortable making comments about someone's identity without even spending the time to get to know the person themselves? Parts of it can be explained by the way that humans work. If people are unsure or confused or lack confidence, they overcomplicate. If people are sure of their ideas, their perceptions, their opinions, they tend to simplify. We see a lot of oversimplification in politics, religion and even science when people believe that they know everything there is to know. But as for where they gain that confidence to think they know everything, it could be explained by the Dunning Kruger effect - a cognitive bias where people with no ability, expertise or experience regarding a certain area of knowledge tend to overestimate their knowledge.
To put it simply, it just means the less you know, the more confident you are and the more you know, the less confident you are as with identity. As with identity, people also have a tendency of oversimplifying when they come across someone whose identity they just don't understand. Instead of actually trying to get to know the person, the energy is spent on understanding the person based on what they know already, not what is the reality. They force the labels that they are already comfortable with onto the person, until the uniqueness of the person disappears, so it's easier for them to understand this confusing person in front of them because unfamiliarity makes them incredibly uncomfortable and they naturally favor comfort over the fact. And as told by Sandra Jim, a Chinese Canadian people and culture manager who was born in Mexico, people generally have a hard time seeing her as the way that she is. A familiar story for a lot of us who have to navigate between multiple identities.
Sandra Jim: My name is Sandra. I was born in Mexico to Chinese parents who met in Canada. My dad immigrated to Mexico from China when he was 17 and spent the rest of his life primarily in Mexico. This would have been sometime in the 1950s, but my dates aren't that clear. His dad, my grandfather, had moved there at the beginning of the 20th century. My dad was visiting a relative in Montreal when he met my mother in 1972. My mother had fled the Cultural Revolution when she was 21 and ended up in Montreal by way of Hong Kong. By 1973, my parents were married and my brother was born. Over the next eight years, my two sisters would be born.
They were a family of five, and my dad had gone back to Mexico because he didn't speak English and couldn't make a living here. My mom eventually moved to Mexico with my brother and two sisters for about ten years, so they all speak Spanish.
Much later I came along. I was a surprise for my parents and they decided to have me in Mexico because our family had been going back and forth for so long. It just made sense. I ended up growing up in Toronto and going to Mexico every summer holiday until I was nine, and I managed to only pick up very rudimentary Spanish. My first language is Cantonese because that's what my mother speaks, but I never learned the slang words or the swear words, and I can't read or write it.
I was never Mexican enough because I never lived in Mexico and I can't speak the language. I was never Chinese enough because I can't read or write it and I never live there either. On the one hand, it's nice to be Canadian because I can make that identity whatever I want, but on the other hand, I am still an immigrant to Canada. When I am asked where I'm from, I say Toronto.
The follow up question is ‘Where were you born?’ Mexico. But I don't look like what people think of when they think of Mexicans. The follow up question to that is what were your parents from? And it is only then when my identity is reduced to my parents ethnic identity, that they're satisfied. When I say I am from Toronto, I don't look like a white person. When I say I am from Mexico, I don't look like the image of what a Mexican person looks like in their minds. But when I see my parents are Chinese immigrants, now I match the image and it makes sense to them. It doesn't matter that I've never lived in China or that my parents have lived in North America far longer than they ever lived in China.
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Isabel Wong: I remember working in a small project team with a senior Asian woman in the team. There's this other guy. I couldn't quite pinpoint his ethnicity, but safe to say non-Asian. And to most Asians in Asia he would be seen as white, despite he's not really or a foreigner in Asia. For those who know a thing or two about living in Asia, you wouldn't know that favorable treatment for non Asians foreigners in Asia is still a thing.
During my time working with this Asian women, one interesting observation I made is that she only ever remembers the name of that non-Asian guy, and she would always mistakenly say things or reference me with a wrong identity or nationality. Even some other members on the team have repeatedly reminded her about my identity and professional experience, which aren't details that actually would matter to the project that we were working on. I specifically remember a conversation we had with the team when I was giving updates about my work stream, which would involve that non-Asian guy. Let's call him Pete for now for easy reference. This Asian woman said to me, Isabel, I know you had a reporting experience and would like to get Pete to work on this. But Pete only worked in TV, and writing is a different skill set. She went on to say things that once again tells me that she forgot my identity and professional experience, even though we actually worked in a very small team. At that particular moment, I felt a mix of feelings. I never expected anyone to remember me or know my story fully because in the grand scheme of things, no one is that important. If you know what I mean. But anyone who's worked with me at least would know a thing or two about my background and what I bring to the table professionally. It's always important to remember the strengths of the people that you work with, by the way.
To have someone you had to work closely with dismiss your whole career and life experience while repeatedly making assumptions about your cultural identity, despite having been corrected by other people multiple times. And the fact that the person doing all this is Asian. The disappointment I felt was heartbreaking.
In a world where Asians still need to fight hard against systemic racism and bamboo ceiling, the least Asians could do for each other is to understand each other's experience and struggles and try to lift each other up, not taking each other down with biases that belong in the colonial era.
To put it simply, we are not helping each other enough. Why would we help each other just because we're Asian? You may ask. Because for centuries, opportunities have passed us by purely because we are Asian and they are people of other ethnicities who just help each other out with no questions asked. We did not pick this fight. The fight is attached to us. The moment we are born. And it's up to us to make progress, to hopefully unwind this historical fight. People will say, how can you assert yourself so forcefully? Well, you call it forceful, but if we don't assert ourselves, we won't even be seen and heard, let alone getting the credit that we actually deserve.
Leanne Wang: These moments of feeling like my identity and experiences being dismissed is more subtle now. I guess it's still happening quite frequently given the field that I work in. I think it's kind of funny that people in the creative industry always want to see themselves as being more, quote unquote, woke. But oftentimes the kind of work culture that gets perpetuated is actually quite shallow.
For example, I worked on a lot of commercials during my three years in China, and I'd say that my portfolio is robust enough to qualify me for projects that are nearing, if not quite top level yet out of all the production agencies have reached out to and I've reached out to almost every single one in Toronto, I would say like at least a few dozen. The universal response has been that my work is too Chinese, whatever that means. This refusal to recognize work that comes out of countries not generally considered First World is systematic in the creative industry.
I've heard multiple bipoc in first generation immigrant creators tell me that their quote unquote ethnic version of the same commercials get only a fraction of the budget that the English and French versions get. I'm talking about the exact same set and script, with the only difference being that actors and crews are minorities speaking a non-official language. And this happens all the time, but no one seems to be addressing it. Even now, a lot of funding bodies and broadcasters only have white people in mind when they talk about, quote unquote, mainstream audiences. And BIPOCcreators end up having to fall back on some cliché trauma porn stories to get their works made and distributed. A large portion of our real experiences is dismissed because they aren't what mainstream audiences are expecting from us based on stereotypes about us.
Isabel Wong: The mainstream media is still selectively featuring Asian narratives and stories that fit the stereotype. That's why a lot of in-between Asians don't get their side of the story told. And because of that, to this day, there aren't people out there who will take to changing the names in order to escape unconscious bias. And here's Sandra telling us the story behind her name, Jim.
Sandra Jim: Because my grandfather lived and worked in Mexico and my dad moved there when he was so young. They both have Spanish names. My grandfather took the name Antonio and my dad took the name Andric. He experienced a great deal of racism in Mexico, which I only remember overhearing snippets of as a child. But this is why it was important to my dad that we all get names that would blend in. We also follow Mexican naming traditions. The firstborn son is named after the dad. My father was Enrique, and the English version of that is Henry. Therefore, my brother is named Henry. He has a son named Henri, which is the French version. Because my brother married a woman from France. My sisters have Spanish names. And my name is Sandra. Elisa. Elisa is my middle name. And the Asian kids I grew up with didn't have middle names. They had legal names that were phonetically translated from their language into English and preferred names that they went by in school. Whereas my legal name is Sandra Elisa Jim.
Another part of Mexican naming traditions is the father's last name goes in front of the mother's last name. But in Canada, the last name you see is the last name. My birth certificate has both my parents last names on it, and my mother's last name is more obviously Asian sounding than Jim. There was a period of time where we considered legally dropping my mom's last name from the rest of my name, so all of my documentation would match. It's a headache and we never ended up doing it. But my sister's told me, you'll want to change it because you don't want an Asian last namewhen you're applying for jobs. You'll be more likely to be hired if employers see Jim. Trust me, I didn't fully understand at the time, but the lesson I was being given was if you can obscure your ethnic identity on paper, you'll get farther.
Isabel Wong: I've lost count of how many times I've heard people saying by looking at the name, I can't tell who this person is from. Well, the answer is because you can't. One of the reasons why I am upset seeing unconscious bias in action is because while everyone is biased in their own way, the awareness of bias and different cultural nuances that I've formed over the years from living in different places has shaped me into a person who tries not to make assumptions.
When I meet a person for the first time, I never really have thought like, this person must be Thai or American or Japanese. I ask. I ask, Where are you from? How do you identify yourself? No matter where that person lives, is based or what language that person speaks. Because how arrogant would that be if we just assumed someone's life story in our own heads based on our own limited knowledge? And usually when you ask, you'll be pleasantly surprised by people who really have different experiences.
An ethnically Chinese girl who was born and raised in Latin America and speaks better Spanish than Chinese? You won't know until you ask a white British girl who is born and raised in Japan and spent her whole life explaining to people she's not just a foreigner who is in Japan because she's probably fascinated by sushi and the Hollywood portrayal of Japan. She's a true Japanese at heart and does not know a lot about her British heritage. You won't know until you ask.
While there are a lot of discussions that make advancing inclusivity sound like rocket science and advanced engineering, a lot of the time, how you begin becoming inclusive is by asking questions like ‘Where are you from?’ And then stop and truly listen without trying to add your own assumptions into the conversation. When someone tells you something that you are not in any way familiar with, don't dismiss it because it's not something that you know. Simply ask, ‘I'm not familiar with this. Tell me more.’ And don't ever make conclusive statements about a person's age, identity, nationality, ability before you even asked a person about themselves. Of course, you don't need to be interested in learning about the life story about everyone that you come across, but just know that if you're not going to spend time to get to know a person, you're not qualified to make any assumptions about that person. Or so sticking to the facts is the most useful and powerful mindset and technique that I learned from journalism school in the event I have to report on topics that I'm not at all familiar with. I'm taught and programmed to be comfortable with unfamiliarity, and that's certainly not taught enough outside of journalism schools. And I just want to leave you with what our guest Sandra, said:
Sandra Jim: Just get to know the person before you make assumptions. Let them tell you how they perceive their identity and understand that we aren't confined to political borders. Defining race, especially with the move and immigration happening all around the world, I encourage everyone to read Kimberly Crenshaw's idea of intersectionality. We're all the sum of our parts and everybody's got different parts, so don't leave your experiences at the door.
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Isabel Wong: And with that, I'll see you in the next episode of “Proudly Asian.” That's it for this episode of the Asian. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at “Proudly Asian.” For more content, we are on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. Leave us a five star review on wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for tuning in and signing off for now. I'm Isabel Wong.
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Sarah: I’m Sarah Mizes Tan. Thanks for listening to this bonus episode. Don’t forget to follow Mid Pacific to make sure you don’t miss any episodes. Thanks for listening.
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