Mike Thomas on co-writing a new Johnny Carson biography

NPR's Scott Simon interviews Mike Thomas about the new Johnny Carson biography, "Carson the Magnificent," co-written by Bill Zehme.

Transcript

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON")

ED MCMAHON: And now, ladies and gentlemen, here's Johnny.

(CHEERING)

SCOTT SIMON, HOST:

It might be hard to grasp today just how big Johnny Carson was. He hosted "The Tonight Show" from 1962 until 1992, a bedtime companion for 9 million viewers each night. And as famed names lined up to sit on his couch, over time, Johnny's name became as big as their own. Esquire magazine's Bill Zehme began a biography of Johnny Carson in 2002 and interviewed the man himself, as well as friends, competitors, ex-wives and family.

When Bill died of cancer in 2023, Mike Thomas, who had once been arts and entertainment writer at the Chicago Sun-Times, took over what had become a huge literary project. Their new book, "Carson The Magnificent." It's an unblinking look at a man who entertained millions but could be remote and even mean to those closest to him. Mike Thomas joins us now from the studios of WBEZ in Chicago. Mike, thanks so much for being with us.

MIKE THOMAS: Thank you for having me.

SIMON: How big was Johnny Carson? Help us understand that.

THOMAS: I think Johnny Carson was - as the great Bill Carter, the chronicler of late night recently called him - probably the biggest star on television ever. I mean, Carson started his show in 1962, quickly became a phenomenon and was on television when there weren't that many channels. But he was at the top of his game, and everybody watched it.

SIMON: And what did you find when you took over this project?

THOMAS: I found a lot of material, stacks and stacks of...

SIMON: Yeah.

THOMAS: ...Material that I had to wade through that Bill had collected - transcripts from people and shows and all kinds of artifacts, a big pink check from Johnny to Doc Severinsen, his band leader, an ugly Johnny Carson collection tie. Bill had everything.

SIMON: How did magic change Johnny Carson's life?

THOMAS: Well, I mean, magic was his first form of performing, and he retained this fascination with magic throughout his life and career. I think he loved being able to pull one over on people. He loved the skills involved in magic, the sleight of hand and the secrets that magicians kept. And Johnny did a lot of disappearing himself. He wasn't a very revelatory guy. He would reveal himself in bits and pieces during the show, mostly in his monologues or maybe in guest interviews and stuff like that. But he was kind of a disappearing act himself, especially offstage. A lot of what he had was internal, and only select people got to see that part of it.

SIMON: What was his great gift as a host do you think?

THOMAS: I think Johnny always thought his great gift - and I think this is probably true - was his empathy with the audience, this sort of connection he had. He could sense the way the room felt, the way jokes were going.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON")

JOHNNY CARSON: I know - you know you're not doing well when a guy calls for the paramedics during the monologue.

(LAUGHTER)

CARSON: Anybody remember what I was talking about?

THOMAS: He had this perfectly cool demeanor for a cool medium. And he came across as this very earthy guy who had conversations with guests and who had this very sort of tight rapport with his audience. It was a facade. It wasn't actually tight, but I think that's the way a lot of people felt. And, you know, he would put people to bed every night. Literally, they would go to sleep watching him, and he was the last thing flickering on their screens and on their brains before they went to sleep, and that made a huge impression on people.

SIMON: I have to ask about the and-yet parts. He was a viciously mean drunk, wasn't he?

THOMAS: He could be, yes, especially early on. He did not handle alcohol well. He always said that. And it wasn't like he would drink gallons of it, either. He just - when he said I did not drink well, it was, you know, a couple of vodkas. And all of a sudden, it was like this Jekyll-Hyde transformation. He could go from being a reserved, sensible guy to somebody who might throw a punch at you or cause havoc at home, tip over tables at a restaurant. So, yes, there is always that part of Johnny.

SIMON: Married four times, innumerable assignations. And once said that asking him about marriage - I shouldn't laugh as I say this - was like asking the captain of the Hindenburg to drive the Goodyear Blimp.

THOMAS: (Laughter) That's a good way to put it. That was not mine, by the way. That's - yes.

SIMON: That was his, right? Yeah.

THOMAS: Yeah. You know, he knew that he was unlucky in love. And he always knew that "The Tonight Show" was his most significant other. I mean, that's not unlike a lot of other people who are deeply passionate about and involved in what they do. Things fall by the wayside. And he knew that about his marriages. He knew that about his relationships with his sons. He had always wished he was closer with his sons. And I think he felt that especially acutely in 1991 when his son Ricky died, which just crushed him. And I have to think part of that was him wishing they could have been closer 'cause they were very alike in a lot of ways.

SIMON: You know, I found just about the saddest line in the book from one of his sons. And that's an email from Cory Carson, the youngest son, who said, quote, "work was easy for him. Family was not." And this is the part that tugs your heart. It was so hard to see their father enthralled with guests night after night.

THOMAS: Yeah.

SIMON: And not interested in talking to his children.

THOMAS: And then he says, what did they have that I didn't have? And it was pretty much 10 minutes of material.

SIMON: Yeah. I want to play a clip. You're going to know what I'm talking about. It has been called the longest laugh in television history. April 27, 1965, Ed Ames, who was not a scintilla Cherokee, but played a character named Mingo on "Daniel Boone," was showing Johnny Carson his skill at throwing a tomahawk. Threw it at a cowboy figure on a board. How do we say this nicely?

(LAUGHTER)

SIMON: He hit the cowboy midsection?

THOMAS: I'd say a little lower than midsection.

SIMON: A little lower than midsection. All right. Thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

SIMON: Longest laugh in television history. What skill do we see on display there in Johnny?

THOMAS: We see Johnny immediately sensing what has gone awry and preventing Ed Ames from actually going to pull the tomahawk out of the board that he's thrown it at. So it's sticking there. People are staring at it and the audience...

SIMON: Camera actually focuses on it.

THOMAS: Camera focuses on it, and he prevents Ed Ames from doing that cause Johnny wants to milk the laugh. He knows exactly how long to do that, and then he jumps in with the line.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON")

CARSON: I didn't even know you were Jewish.

(LAUGHTER)

SIMON: And, as you point out, there's something kind of ironic about that, isn't there?

THOMAS: From my research, Ed Ames actually was Jewish.

SIMON: Yes (laughter).

THOMAS: So, you know, he was making a circumcision joke here, and, you know (laughter).

SIMON: Yeah. Do we miss something these days when people talk about how polarized and divided our culture is that we don't have somebody who's as - I mean, we have Taylor Swift.

THOMAS: Right.

SIMON: And Beyonce.

THOMAS: That may be the modern-day parallel right there...

SIMON: Yeah.

THOMAS: ...In terms of bringing people together. I mean, I do like the fact that today, there is far more choice, but there isn't a common reference point like there was back in the day. And I guess there is something to be said for that in terms of people communicating with each other about a common thing they saw that wasn't politics. I mean, Johnny would cover politics...

SIMON: Yeah.

THOMAS: ...Occasionally, but nobody's saying, hey, did you see that - did you hear that Nixon joke he told? But it was more about the overall experience. And there was a comfort that Johnny brought to people. He certainly brought that to Bill. Bill's metaphor was that he was, you know, the greatest security blanket this country has ever had. In times good and bad, Johnny was there.

SIMON: Mike Thomas, who's written with the late Bill Zehme, "Carson The Magnificent." Thank you so much for being with us.

THOMAS: Thanks, Scott. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.