Terra Lopez, Host: This episode talks about suicide, self-harm and death. If you or someone you know is struggling, help is available. Dial 9-8-8 and get in touch with the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
Xander: After my mom died, somehow everybody in the school knew. One of my classmates came up to me and said, ‘This was your fault.’ And how common is that, though? You know, anybody who's been touched by suicide, that feeling of guilt and responsibility is so pervasive. But to have it be this named so in such a forward way as if I didn't already feel it.
Mike: All the unanswered questions I was saving up for him since I was 14 that I – that he stole from me!
Terra Lopez, Host: This episode is going to be a heavy one. It's a topic that is very personal to me and I hope the time that we spend together today might possibly provide a deeper understanding around trauma and mental health. Subjects that I still don't think we as a society talk about enough.
[Music begins and fades out underneath narration]
I'm Terra Lopez. And today we are looking at what it feels like to lose a parent to suicide.
In 2015, I lost my father, David Lawrence Lopez, to suicide. He was 50 years old.
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I remember that day perfectly — it was a sunny afternoon and I had just sat down to watch an episode of “Friends” and eat some pad thai from my favorite spot around the corner when my step mom called me. My life completely changed with that phone call.
And if I'm being completely honest, I'm not the same person that I was before I lost my dad.
I don't know how to be that person. I'd love to sit here and tell you that I got through it. But the truth is, I'm still working on it. Even after all these years, I still think about him every single day. And of course, it varies from person to person, but for me it affected everything from my mental health to my physical health, emotional health.
As you know, I've been a musician and performing artist for 14 years. But for a year I lost my ability to sing. I couldn't use my voice the way that I was used to. I felt traumatized and timid. I second guessed everything. I felt anxious all the time. My short-term memory was terrible. I became antisocial and for the first time in my life I found it hard to connect with people. But my father's death also forced me to finally face my own depression and mental health. I started therapy. I got on antidepressants. And talk therapy helped. But only to an extent because I found that my therapist couldn't really relate to how it felt to lose a parent to suicide. So I stopped talking about it. I just buried myself in my work. I'd look for books or group meetings from time to time, but I found nothing.
There were surprises and hopeful moments, though. The amount of love and support that I received online specifically was just incredible. Friends sent me so many messages telling me that they had also lost a parent to suicide, and one of those messages was from a guy that I'd known for a long time. We grew up in the same area, kind of ran the same circles. He was known around town as a professional skateboarder. And he's always been such a solid, good guy to me and everyone that I know. His name is Mike Rafter. Rafter is what most folks call him. And the day after my dad died, he messaged me.
Mike: Hey Terra. I'm here for you if you need me. I lost my dad that way, too.
Terra: I remember staring at his message, just stunned that I never knew this fact about him. And then once the initial shock wore off, I felt some lightness because he was a great person and I thought that if he could get through it, then maybe I could too.
[Music starts and goes under]
Terra: I met Xander Marquez at my partner's book club a few years ago. He was always so sweet and kind and almost always the only guy in the living room those nights. A few months ago, Xander messaged me on Facebook and told me that he had lost his mom to suicide. I had so many questions. I'd never sat down and had a deep, honest discussion with anyone who had lost a parent to suicide because we just don't talk about these things. For some reason, we're expected to go through this alone and figure out how to cope and survive while quietly suffering. Because suicide is really heavy to talk about.
[Music ends]
And then all the while, you feel like you're becoming defined by this otherness, because now you have to repress this pain and shame and hold it all in. But I didn't want to do that any longer. I wanted to know everything — how it affected them; if they spiraled like I did? If they had any regrets like I do? If they have a hard time with holidays like I do? And if they feel like a victim because of it?
And I found out they were eager to talk to me, too. And one thing that's so wild to me is how all three of our stories so closely intersect and align. You'll hear how we were all in the second grade when we had these big life events happen to us. Our parents all struggled with drugs, alcohol and had mental health challenges. We all have this guilt that we've held onto all of these years. You're going to hear the similar threads of traumatic custody battles, intense phone calls and a lot of family dysfunction that Mike, Xander and I share. We had and still have a lot in common.
[Theme Music starts]
“This Is What It Feels Like” to lose a parent to suicide.
[Theme Music ends]
[Transition music begins and fades under]
Terra: Mike Rafter was born and raised in Erie, Penn., and he lived there with his mom until they had a sudden move to California. Again, this was in the second grade.
Mike: So she was like, Hey, I don't know what my plan is, but we're going to California. And she had never even visited.
Terra: Wow.
Mike: But we had some family out here. And, you know, if you haven't been to California, you think the whole state is the beach. So you're like, cool, we're going to move to the beach.
Terra: So, Mike, where was your father during this time?
Mike: So my father had visited us, came out to visit us. Well, I guess the plan was that he would get himself together and we would be a family. That was the plan.
Terra: Get himself together. What do you mean by that?
Mike: I guess there's quite a bit of story ahead of it.
Terra: His parents were high school sweethearts. They had a great time together until Mike's father left to avoid the draft for Vietnam.
Mike: So he met me when I was two, walking down the street in a stroller and a big surprise to him. But, of course, he ran into my mom and he said, ‘Oh, who's this?’ And she was like. ‘That’s your son.’ ‘That’s my son?’ ‘Yeah.’ So, Yeah, I'm sure that was a big shock to him.
Terra: Mike's father was in and out of his life. He'd appear for weeks at a time and then just vanish. Struggles with drugs, alcohol and holding down a job always seemed to get in the way.
Mike: As much as I remember him, like teaching me to throw a basketball or ride a bike. I also remember him like throwing stuff around the kitchen and, you know, like yelling in my mom's face or picking me up when I was in a chair with my leg twisted around and like, shouting at me to, like, ‘get the fuck out of here’ and all these things. So I have like an equal taste of, memory of, like this really cool guy who was like a poet and an artist, but was also a monster.
Terra: California wasn't what they'd hoped. They jumped from place to place. He remembers sleeping with his mom on a cot in a relative's laundry room. His dad would visit and make promises that they'd get a place together, finally be a family. But then things would spiral. They'd find heroin needles hidden in the house. So Mike’s dad eventually left for good.
[Transition music starts and goes under]
Terra: Shortly after my dad died, my partner's dad pulled me aside and said something to me that forever shifted my perspective. He told me that my father's death didn't define him, and I didn't even realize how much anxiety and shame I was carrying at the time.
But in that moment, I felt lighter by simply having someone say that my dad was bigger than his final act. I was able to see beyond it somehow and finally see the duality that did exist within him, because my dad was a person first and foremost. For whatever reason, those words gave me permission to embrace him, flaws and all. I was able to see that it didn't make him a bad dad. And it also didn't have to be how I remembered him.
Terra: Do you remember any moments or memories that brought him joy? You said he was a poet. Did that, like was that one of his dreams or goals was to write or to travel and to do that?
Mike: I remember we would draw together sometimes and we would sometimes draw on the same piece of paper at the same time, like he would draw a line and he would like. He'd be like, ‘okay, we're going to make two cities. And my city is on the side and your city is on the side.’ And I was so amazed at how he could make things come out of his hand and I would try and copy. And those were times of joy for him, for sure. But he was the kind of guy that would like jump on a train car and not know where it's going. But he's like, let's see where it goes. And then he's gone for a few days. Like where did he go? He jumped on a train car. Where did you go?
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Terra: Xander Marquez was born in Folsom, Calif. It's a small suburb of Sacramento and grew up mostly in the capital city. His parents were separated, and like Mike, he also had an unexpected move while he was in the second grade. His mother, Karen Marquez, decided to take him and his siblings to Oregon.
Xander: One day she just said, ‘Pack your things up. You can choose your toy car or the dog. And we're moving. We're getting out of here.’
Terra: They briefly lived in a hotel. Eventually, his father and grandmother had custody, and that would be the last time Xander lived with his mother.
Terra: How old were you when you last saw her?
Xander: Hmm. I was 12 when she died. And I don't know if I saw her that same year. So either 11 or 12.
Terra: When I was in the second grade at around age eight, my younger brother and I were also involved in a traumatic custody battle. When you're a kid, you already are very aware that you have little agency or choice. So an experience like that leaves a permanent impression on you. Over those couple of years during the custody battle, we weren't allowed to see our mother at all, but we'd sometimes get to speak to her on the phone. Those calls brought up so many emotions.
Xander: My mom would call me and I have just this really salient memory of the phone. Like the big chunky-ness of it. It was one of those wireless landlines. And whenever I would see her name pop up on the green little screen, it would just make my heart sink. Like, I dreaded those calls. And it's because almost every time she would say, ‘Who do you love more?’ And she would be crying. She drank a lot. And so just that the weight of those comments and I'm a child, I am like, ‘I love you both. I don't know what to say.’ And there were times where she would say, ‘Well, you don't love me enough,’ so.
Mike: He would call on my birthday, but he was always drunk when he would call. So the call was always, like, tough. My dad and I share the same birthday. (Mike starts to get emotional) I’m sorry …
Terra: No, it's okay. Don't. Don't apologize.
Mike: It's hard to ... Yeah, I always felt that it was an obligation and I'm sure every kid has had this feeling where it's like, ‘Grandma is on the phone, say hi,’ and you're like, ‘I don't want to have to say hi.’ So of course, I would begrudgingly get on the phone knowing that my dad would be drunk. You know, nine years old, ten years old, 11 years old, 12 years old. And I'm like recognizing this is going to be the same conversation every time — he's crying, sad, guilty and embarrassed that he's not in my life and drunk. I'm becoming a teen and getting shorter and shorter with my patience on it and developing like, major resentment. And the last time I took a call from him was when I was 14. I think I, I either told them to fuck off and hung up or I definitely thought it, but I had had enough. I was like, ‘This is all that I’m gonna get from you? I don't want it.’
Terra: So you’re 14, you had this conversation … then what?
Mike: I had, basically — and I still feel this way — I feel like I closed the door on my dad and I feel like I did it at a low point for him, which now makes me feel terrible. And I was done. I didn't want to hear from him. I didn't care anymore. And when people and friends would be like, ‘We all know your mom. She's amazing. Like, like, where's your dad?’ I would be like, ‘I don't have one.’
Terra: Xander was 12 when he found out that his mother had died from suicide.
[Transition music starts and goes under]
Terra: You know, you were heading into your teenage years, which for anyone and everyone is already so emotional and difficult. So how did you go through those years? What did you do to cope?
Xander: I was very fortunate that because of the custody battle, the court mandated I see a therapist. So I had somebody in my life who I could talk to. It's just wonderful. But even then, I don't even remember talking to her much. I didn't want to talk to people about it. I would share in such a direct way that it pushed people away, just like, ‘my mom's dead.’ And then nobody wanted to talk to me. But I don't blame them. I wouldn't know how to follow that one up either.
Terra: After my dad died, I got obsessed with researching and trying to find as much information on the effects of suicide and the harm that it can cause. I was worried not only about myself, but also about my three younger brothers. And in that research, I found that children who lose a parent to suicide are more likely to die the same way. They're actually three times more likely to die by suicide than those with living parents.
Xander: I felt that destabilization. I hit a point in my depression where I was hurting myself. I was pretty staunchly against suicide. At the time, I held a belief that I no longer hold, which is that it was a selfish choice. And I don't think that that's the case. But I think that that belief maybe kept me alive. During that time, I ended up going into a mental hospital for some time to keep myself safe. Because even though I didn’t want to die I was reckless with my life. Thankfully, I was still such a square, it just meant playing a bunch of World of Warcraft (laughs loudly) And listening to very sad music. But it was still not a good setup for me and that was hard and it took a long time to come back to myself.
Terra: Where was the turning point?
Xander: It happened so quickly. It was like it was tough. It's hard. It feels like when I think about it, I'm remembering somebody else's life. But I was terrified of everything. I had awful anxiety. Whenever my grandma left the house, I thought she was going to die. I couldn't get to class. I couldn't go to the grocery store. I couldn't go to school. I actually kind of dropped out. The only reason I was able to graduate is because I went to school, to the mental hospital. And I think all of those things, as well as my wonderful therapist, kept me going. And then eventually, I think, shifted. And I felt better. I felt closer to myself. I think I may have been listening to Radiohead. (laughs)
Terra: That'll do it.
Xander: Felt better, but I was listening to it and thinking, ‘okay, I'm going to be okay.’ And it just clicked and I just felt better.
[Transition music begins and goes under]
Terra: After the break, Mike and I talk about the day he found out his father passed away and how his death forced Mike to look at his own mental health.
[Transition music swells and ends]
[Sponsorship Break]
Terra: Mike says he wrote his dad off after a difficult phone call on their shared birthday. He was 14. He says he buried his emotions and put all of his focus into skateboarding. He traveled the world as a professional skateboarder and quickly made a name for himself. It wasn't until he was in his 30s that he decided to look up his dad.
Mike: I had wondered about him, but I was very busy and I was thinking like, ‘Yeah, yeah, someday, yeah, someday I'll look him up. Someday I'll figure it out when I'm ready.’ And if anyone hears this podcast and you're not sure when you're going to be ready, hurry up, hurry up. Wrote my dad. I wrote him and let him know that I'd like to speak to him and that I was doing well. I sent him a picture of me and my partner at the time and a picture of me skateboarding because I was a professional skateboarder and I was very proud of it.
I wanted him to know that I turned out great and that I would like to have him in my life and that it wouldn't require (silence) any apologies or any deep digging. And we could start from wherever he wanted to start from. I got a phone call from him. When he received my letter and he left a voicemail and he said, ‘Hey, Mike. This is Randall, your dad. I got your letter. I'd love to talk to you. I'll try you again later. I love you.’
Terra: Mike went on tour the next day and was gone for about three to four weeks, and when he arrived home, his mother and partner were outside of his house waiting to greet him. He says that he immediately sensed something was wrong. His mother broke the news. His father had died. She didn't say how.
[Transition music starts and goes under]
Mike: And I felt some kind of way about it, but I immediately started burying any feelings I had about it. I was like I started trying to revert to the 14 year old who didn't give a shit like well I hadn’t known him that well. (sigh)
I just tried to bury it. What really started to fuck me up, though, (silence) was that I learned that he had died while I was on that trip and that he had taken some pills on our shared birthday and had decided that… (Mike shows some emotion) That was going to be his last day. So my birthday for several years after that were super rough. (silence) I've since taken them back.
And I think that not enough, not enough men seek mental health when they should. So I did. And with the support of my loved ones, I've been able to deal with my trauma and pain and make good decisions going forward. And I put a system together to be okay with showing emotion and to be okay with your faults and to express when you need help in whatever state of shit that you're going through. And I think that around the world it's pretty common that men aren't supposed to show emotion. And in the past decade, we definitely have seen some change. At least we're discussing it. And it's not the only thing we need to do, but it's on the fucking list.
[Transition music comes up and ends]
Mike: And one of the things that really pains me is all the unanswered questions I was saving up for him since I was 14, that – that he stole from me! He took all those answers with him. And I can't imagine the pain he was under and the stress and how repressed everything he had gone through in his life was and how long he carried it.
I learned only very recently that my dad wasn't only away because of drugs and alcohol. He was bisexual and he wanted to have relationships that weren't acceptable in his family circle and the small town that he lived in. So of course, he would travel. Those are strong urges to do what you want to do. I feel so bad having not known more about him earlier and not giving him my open arms, and then like I never even had a chance to be like, ‘Dad, I'm so glad you chose to be who you wanted to be.’ There's a bigger space in my heart for my dad than there was before he was gone.
Xander: There is that heaviness of loss and grief. But then the parts of myself that wanted to survive knew that there was a lightness that came with her, her passing. And that, man, that's a tough one to admit. Because it doesn't feel cold.
It doesn't feel, it's not that her life didn't have meaning, but that there are parts of me that know like I'm trans, I'm trans, and my mom was Mormon. I could not be who I am today if my mom were around. And is that a worthwhile exchange? No.
I wouldn't trade my mom's life for that. But there is that difference. Oh, that's a heavy one.
Terra: My father was a Jehovah's Witness, and when I came out to him, he basically disowned me and did not allow me to see my two younger brothers. And it was so difficult losing my father, my father's relationship, my brothers’ relationship, and my father's entire side. And I think about that a lot, about who would I be now if he was here? Would I be as out as I am in a public facing way? And I understand how heavy it is to admit that there is some lightness with them not being present anymore.
Xander: It's heavy.
Terra: It's so heavy.
Xander: It's nuanced.
Terra: It's so taxing and exhausting at times trying to reconcile that within yourself.
Xander: Yeah.
Terra: I don't know how much you want to get into this, but you mentioned you're trans and you mentioned that your mother was very religious and would not approve. I don't know if you're like me, but I often think about my identity a lot aligned with my father. And I just I grapple with wondering, well, would he have changed his outlook on me? Would he have eventually come around like some other family members have? Do you ever wrestle with that?
Xander: I do. I wonder. And could she have gotten there where she accepted me? I don't know. Maybe. That would have been meaningful. I think about how she doesn’t know my name. (silence) I myself am not a religious person or maybe even a spiritual person. That maybe she's still watching somehow. Maybe she does know me. Maybe now she's lighter. And I hope that's true.
Terra: I think it's so important to see the human side of someone who has died by suicide. I think far too often when someone chooses that path, they then only become known for that act. And something that I've really tried to do with my own father is to honor him and to remember and recount the times where I saw him smile or I saw his passion or saw him laugh. I'd love to know if there are any moments that stand out over her hobbies or joys or passions.
Xander: I think if there's one thing that I loved most about my mom is that she was a gamer. (warm laughter)
Terra: Really?
Xander: She was a gamer. And it's so funny because you would just never guess. She was very preoccupied with looks like she wanted to be pristine. Not that gamers can't be pristine, but I don't know that she would have shared that with the world. But at home, the fun memories I have with her are playing “Diablo,” (laughter) and I just love that. I loved that it was kind of goofy and playful, and she didn't really let herself be like that, at least from my memory.
Terra: I want to know, how do you feel about their decision? Has it evolved over time?
Xander: It has evolved. I touched on earlier how at the beginning I felt it was very selfish and just culturally that was the general consensus. And I held on to that and I held on to my anger for years. That's how I felt. And then I recognized it wasn't really how I felt. It wasn't true to me. And part of that was when I recognized how with that lightness I touched on earlier, I'm going to kind of hop around here. But there was a conversation I had with my sister. And she shared the same feelings that I had that maybe the decision was for us. And in a very ill-advised, perhaps twisted way, but to recognize that she was so far down a path and didn't know how to get out and that to protect us, she made that choice. And I wish that I could go back. (Xander gets emotional) Go back and tell her that there is another way. Who knows? Maybe were wrong. Maybe it wasn't that at all. But to think that it was perhaps a decision made with love.
Terrar: What do you think people get the most wrong then, about suicide?
Xander: That's a good question. Hmm. I mean, the selfishness of it, I think, is often wrong. In fact, I don't know if it's ever really done with selfishness. (deep sigh) Maybe that somebody is constantly in despair leading up to it and that more and more is coming to light. You know, like just because somebody appears okay doesn't mean they are. And that's why it's good to check in with people.
Terra: What resources do you wish that you had at the time or and or what resources do you think we need to have for people who are inevitably, sadly going to go through the same experience that we've gone through?
Mike: I think what we're missing is we may be missing this more because of where in the world we live. People in the United States, we don't care for our dead. We outsource it to others. The minute someone passes away, it's like hands off. We have professionals to deal with that. And because of that, we don't have as great backup resources for the emotional well-being of those who have lost someone. So if we could change something or if we could prepare for terrible times, I think that part of\ education, normal education. It should be somewhere in there, as tough as it would be to teach. If we can teach sexual education, we should be able to teach death education and cycle of life. And beyond the biological cycle of life that we get in like high school. But: here's what happens when your grandparents might pass. Here's what to expect. Instead of everyone figuring it out as it's happening. And beyond the emotional burdens, all of the financial burdens that happen when someone passes away, expectedly or unexpectedly. We never prepared for them, and there's no space in education for it. But it's important enough to make its way in there. I'm sure we could sacrifice a little algebra.
Xander: I think that talking to people who had been through the same experience, there were times where I was in group therapy sessions at my school, that was not great. Because I tried to be honest about the feelings around my mom and nobody else there understood. And I got ostracized for it. So talking to people who understood, I think that, you know, in the same way that we're talking now would have been huge. And also when I think about resources, I think less and less about myself and more about my mother. And what if she had more resources? What if she had more support? Would it have been a situation where I didn't need any resources?
[Music transition]
Terra: In what ways do you stay connected to your mom?
Xander: That's changed too. For most of my life, it was as little as possible I stayed connected to my mom. But now I seek it out more. I after I think it was 12 years, maybe more. After her death, I finally put up a shelf in my room with a picture of her and part of her ashes. And I'll look at her and think about her and try to be gentle and try to talk about her more. And sometimes I'll talk to her out loud.
Terra: You do that, too?
Xander: And I'm sure my roommate hears it sometimes.
Mike: This is what my uncle sent to me after my dad passed. It's my dad's wallet. Check it out. That's the last picture of him. You can pull it out at his Auntie Carter library. I can't remember when it was taken, but even in that picture, I can't see his eyes.
Terra: Wow. Don't you hate that my dad has so many. It's just… There's... We have a lot of similarities, I'll just say. My dad never told me he was proud of me.
Mike: Oh.
Terra: My entire life. And he never came to a show of mine. He just never did. You know, I just thought, He doesn't even know what my voice sounds like. He doesn't even know I sing.
Mike: Really?
Terra: And when he passed away, he had two huge safes in his garage. One of them was open. One of them was not. So while I was there, I had to pay – you know, we're talking about finances for death, and we never even think about it – I had to pay, like, $1,000 to get the safe open because I was like, ‘What is in this tiny little safe?’ And we open it, and it was every single album I've ever made. He had albums I don't even have. He had band T-shirts of my like my high school band and stickers and never told me that he listened, ever. And I just remember completely falling apart. And that was the time where I realized, like, okay, he was proud of me. And he did care and he did love me.
Mike: That's amazing.
Terra: It is. It was a lot at the time, but it's what keeps me inspired and motivated to continue creating or singing and whatnot. And that also has really shaped me ever thinking I know what someone else is thinking.
[Theme Music starts and goes under]
Terra: I want to thank Mike and Xander for being so open and for sharing their parents' stories and also for sharing with us what their healing looks and feels like. I know that everyone's experience is drastically different, but I do think that there are common threads in these shared experiences that can help immensely. And if anything, I hope you leave this episode with something that I have grown to truly believe, and that is we are all doing the best we can with the knowledge we have.
If you or someone you know is struggling, help is available. Dial 9-8-8 and get in touch with the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
“This Is What It Feels Like” Is a production of CapRadio. Hosted and produced by me – Terra Lopez.
Jen Picard produced and edited the show. Sally Longenecker is our executive producer.
Our sound designer is Paul Conley.
Additional editing from Nick Miller.
Original theme song and music produced by Wes Jones.
Additional music from Spoq, Blue Dot Sessions and Spiljak.
Chris Bruno is in charge of marketing. Our designs were created by Marisa Espiritu. Renee Thompson is our Digital Products Manager.
We’d like to thank Mike Rafter and Xander Marquez for sitting down with us and sharing their incredible stories.
Lastly, I want to thank Carl & Sue Miller whose generous gift was instrumental in making this podcast come to life.
If you want to make sure you don’t miss any episodes, follow or subscribe to this podcast. We’ve got links to resources in our show notes. For photos of our guests and more information, visit capradio-dot-org-slash-FEELS.
Thanks for listening to “This Is What It Feels Like.”
[Theme Music swells and ends]
